stability control

[olegk21]

a few new rwd cars with lots of hp such as the IS350 and the chrysler/dodge srt -8 cars also come with an obtrusive stabilit contol system that significantly limits performance and can't be completely turned off.<p>for example... according to road and track the IS250 awd actually pulled off better skidpad numbers and faster speed through the salalom than th IS350<p>the dymler cars are only about half a second quicker to 60 despite having 80 more hp<p>Is this really hurting these companies when facing competition from other brands?<p>Here's my opinion...<p>Have it intrusive and be able to turn it completely off. If the driver wants to run the risk of losing control and does then its his/her fault.

[knicks125]

Leaving the performance factor out of the discussion for a second, I just want to command more and more automakers for making stability control standard, even on some entry-level vehicles.

[IHaveACarAndIDriveIt]

The Lexuses can have their stability controls turned off with that hand brake/brake ritual.<p>I don't think it's hurting Lexus sales at all.<br>Lexus moved 4,461 IS's (1,208 IS350's) in June, which is a 980.1 % increase from a year ago. What more can one expect? +2000%?<br><A HREF="http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2006/07/03-1-0606Sales.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.toyota.com/about/ne....html</A><p>The Lexus ES350 sold 7,645 units in June, further indicating Lexus buyers want the comfort, not real sport.<p>BMW 3-series sedan sales (325i, 330i, 325xi) was 7232<br><A HREF="http://www.autospies.com/news/BMW-keeps-gaining-Sales-up-8-6-in-June-6412" TARGET="_blank">http://www.autospies.com/news/...-6412</A>/<br>It's more than the IS, but less than the IS+ES for sedan buyers. <br>There will be a better comparison once the full IS line is released.<p>How many people go to the track? <br>How many people drive on public roads?<br>It is not OK to fish-tail on a public road in traffic.<p>Most people buy big engines not to handle, but to pull fast when the light turns green. Stability control has no negative impact on the straight line acceleration off a stop light, that people brag about smoking each other.
________
Find Dispensary (http://dispensaries.org/)

[olegk21]

i think my wording was a little off when talking about the dymler cars. it's the traction controll that can't be fully turned of as reported by car and driver<p>yes, lexus's strategy is more sedate driving then let's say a bmw<p>I completely agree that stability control is vital in a rwd car, but why can't it be turned off if need be?

[Naga Royal Guard]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>for example... according to road and track the IS250 awd actually pulled off better skidpad numbers and faster speed through the salalom than th IS350<br></TD></TR></TABLE><p>why would you have expected the 350 to slalom faster than the 250/awd?

[Cozz]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Naga Royal Guard</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why would you have expected the 350 to slalom faster than the 250/awd?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>Odd really, AWD says it all

[mzoltarp]

The reality is that most people might "sport" drive at 6/10ths of a car's performance and feel on the edge. Stability control is a liability reduction necessity. Too many idiots who are not capable of driving well at 9/10ths or 10/10ths either through lack of experience, poor training, or just plain overinflated ego would sue the manuufacturer should they be injured or their survivors should they die. Anyone knows a Porsche 911 will swap ends in the hands of a dumb driver, except dumb drivers do not know it. My Mustang has stability control on it and when it was rainy, I purposely attempted to invoke it. It's actually a great technology. I agree that a well-trained driver can take a performance car to its limit and be faster than the car is capable with the stability control on, but with as many people who think that driving fast and talking on a cell phone to be allowable behavior I'd rather be protected from idiot drivers even if it means I can't turn off stability control.

[Excellerator]

I don't like how car magazines complain about stability control that can't be turned off, or stability control that's too aggressive. I mean, isn't stability control made to save lives, not make the car faster in corners? <p>[The above was edited because I don't think I made myself clear enough :-) ~Excellerator] <p>I can only see stability control being used "in reality" if you're driving in the middle of winter and the car starts to understeer or oversteer. Or, if you're driving in rain. Or, of someone cuts out in front of you while driving on the interstate. But yes, stability control has been a proven feature that saves lives. It should be standard on all cars, like ABS and tire pressure monitoring systems.<br><BR><BR>
<i>Modified by Excellerator at 9:27 PM 7/17/2006</i>

[olegk21]

I agree with "mzoltarp" on almost everything in the quote<p>I completely dissagree with "Excellerator"<br>Have you ever driven or been in a rwd car in bad weather? You don't have to live canada, alaska, or minnnesota to understand.<p>Sure you can go 35mph instead of 65 when there is ice on the street and you might be ok<p>I can tell you from experience. I drive a fwd car and when it was icy on the highway, while still going 20 under the speed limit I could feel my car start to slide. Another time when it was starting to snow in my neighborhood i took a turn at about the same speed that I do when its dry and I was lucky that there was nobody in my way because i slid at least 2 or 3 feet away from my intended path<p>stability control is absolutely necessary in a 2wd; car especially a rwd car. I just think that people should be smart enough to leave it on unless they're on a track or a similar situation in which it's ok to completely disable it

[IcedG35]

From what I've read, it seems like Mercedes is always being said to have a overly intrusive traction control. However, read pretty much every thread on this forum and you get the idea that Mercedes and companies like it, such as Lexus, build cars for people who aren't the best drivers to go effortlessly fast in. Letting 500hp loose in the hands of the typical Mercedes driver isn't safe for anyone, whereas brands like BMW, for insteance, could probably get away with less intrusive systems since the typical BMW buyer is more of a driver than a Mercedes buyer IMO. <p>I will say that stability control is amazing when its on, but I"m glad my G35 can completely disable it. The things its saved me from though would make me glad to have it, even if i couldn't turn it off all the way.

[Santeno]

I challange anyone who is not trying to drive a vehicle at it's dynamic limits to even notice wether traction control systems and other assorted driver's aides are even turned on in most vehicles. Imho, if you are driving a car fast enough on a public road to notice, then you are most likely driving fast enough to be arrested.

[olegk21]

mzoltarp,Iced G35,<p>Any complaints about driving your cars in bad conditions? (rain, snow, gravel, etc)<p>do u really have to drive 20 or 30 below the speed limit in order not to lose traction or make the car turn on traction/stability control?

[Excellerator]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><br>I completely dissagree with "Excellerator"</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I probably overreacted in my post. Sorry.

[IcedG35]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mzoltarp,Iced G35,<p>Any complaints about driving your cars in bad conditions? (rain, snow, gravel, etc)<p>do u really have to drive 20 or 30 below the speed limit in order not to lose traction or make the car turn on traction/stability control?</TD></TR></TABLE><p>absolutely not. i'm pretty good at knowing my cars limits and very rarely does traction control ever come on, no matter what speed in what weather, assuming i'm not driving 60mph on back country roads in a blizzard. but every once in awhile, your very glad its there. <p>i only turn it off on really nice days when i feel like "playing" with my car because i know it won't let me overrev the engine at all on shifts or off the line since my car is stickshift

[anonms]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Have it intrusive and be able to turn it completely off. If the driver wants to run the risk of losing control and does then its his/her fault.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>I think there should be no off switch at all, and it should be standard on all cars. Is it worth risking your life, your records, and/or your finances (insurance rate?) to disable the stability control system just because you want some thrills? Is it worth the risks that you present to others around you just so you have have some fun?<p>A good driver may think he/she is a good driver and can maintain control of their car through all situations. It's a stupid risk caused by a stupidly inflated ego. It doesn't matter how good you think you know your car. crap happens. End of discussion. You never know what may happen.

[IcedG35]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>anonms</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><p>I think there should be no off switch at all, and it should be standard on all cars. Is it worth risking your life, your records, and/or your finances (insurance rate?) to disable the stability control system just because you want some thrills? Is it worth the risks that you present to others around you just so you have have some fun?<p>A good driver may think he/she is a good driver and can maintain control of their car through all situations. It's a stupid risk caused by a stupidly inflated ego. It doesn't matter how good you think you know your car. crap happens. End of discussion. You never know what may happen.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>i think you're gettin a little extreme about this. traction control doesn't idiot proof a car or driver, it prevents you from skidding in the rain. i'd find it very hard to believe the traction control has a real impact on accident rates/fatalities, but if anyone has stats on this it'd be interesting. people like me who enjoy doing their burnouts or fast acceleration would be pretty pissed if our cars couldn't be used to their full potential. just don't confuse that with 16 year olds who drive like drunken morons, because not even stability control will give them common sense.

[olegk21]

If you're going to have stability control that cannot be turned off, then you might as well have the speed limiter on the car set to 70mph instead of 130 or more which most fast cars have. If you get up to 150mph and lose control of your vehicle by crashing into another vehicle traveling the speed limit, no stability blanket would save you. Yes, I know people that have driven that fast on public highways and were lucky they did not crash.<p>All i'm trying to say is if you want to have a little fun and are ready to face the consequences, then you should be able to do so. And no, I would never go 150mph in any car and neither will I break the speed limit on icy roads but I want to at least know I can push the brand new "performance" car to its limits if I wanted to... on lets say a race track.<BR><BR>
<i>Modified by olegk21 at 11:33 PM 7/17/2006</i>

[IcedG35]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you're going to have stability control that cannot be turned off, then you might as well have the speed limiter on the car set to 70mph instead of 130 or more which most fast cars have. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I think you're confused about the situations in which you need stability control, and that you think it does a lot more "driving" than it actually does. I don't mean that in a mean way, but if you want more clarification as to when stability control kicks in then definitely ask.

[anonms]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>IcedG35</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think you're gettin a little extreme about this. traction control doesn't idiot proof a car or driver, it prevents you from skidding in the rain. i'd find it very hard to believe the traction control has a real impact on accident rates/fatalities, but if anyone has stats on this it'd be interesting. people like me who enjoy doing their burnouts or fast acceleration would be pretty pissed if our cars couldn't be used to their full potential. just don't confuse that with 16 year olds who drive like drunken morons, because not even stability control will give them common sense. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>I probably am getting a tad extreme, but I've got some friends that I'm just worried about cuz I think they watch too much Initial D.... X___X And I'd hate to see anything happen to them.

[Santeno]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">All i'm trying to say is if you want to have a little fun and are ready to face the consequences, then you should be able to do so.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>horse hockey. if you're in a closed course then be my guest. however in a public road "being ready to accept the concequences" is a right you don't have, because most other people on the road are not willing to pay for some ignorant driver's stupidity. Emergency rooms and physical therapy units all over thi country are filled with the victims of idiots who thought it was ok to use a public road to "have a little fun".

[Naga Royal Guard]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Cozz</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Odd really, AWD says it all</TD></TR></TABLE><p>yeah, and the 250's nose is significantly lighter

[olegk21]

yes, a speed limiter is a lot different than stability control in its purpose<br>but if you say it's vital for evebody's safety to have it turned on in order to stop idiot drivers, then give me one reason that all new cars, or at leasts those with stability control, shouldn't have a speed limiter set at 70mph or so.

[Designo]

I have parents that aboslutely have NO faith in vehicle stability controls. They seem to have this attitude that its all "marketing hype". Last week, we test drove the S550 and the salesman was talking about ESP and my dad literally blew-up and gave a 10-minute lecture about how it's all "B.S."

[IcedG35]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>Designo</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have parents that aboslutely have NO faith in vehicle stability controls. They seem to have this attitude that its all "marketing hype". Last week, we test drove the S550 and the salesman was talking about ESP and my dad literally blew-up and gave a 10-minute lecture about how it's all "B.S." </TD></TR></TABLE><p>no offense but your dad has no idea what he's talking about then. stability control is an amazing system, and i'm assuming especially amazing on the S550. Even my G35's has amazed me in the rain and other less obvious situations where i was getting a little full of myself. stabilty control, however, does not idiotproof a car, which is apparently what a lot of poeple on this thread think it is capable of doing. it won't drive a car for you, and it won't figure out where there is road and where there isn't. it just knows the path you aimed the car and how to best keep it on that path.

[megadethmartyr]

I know the Hyundai's with ESC (most of them) can be turned of completely. WHy you would really ever want to is a good question. I have been through quite a few driving courses and I wouldn't ever shut it off. I probably do know how to push a car to it edge, but I can't think of any good reason to do so. On the same note, Hyundai's system are set pretty high on tolerences. Minus crappy roads, I have never been able to get the system to step in during agressive driving (Sonata).

[Designo]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>IcedG35</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> no offense but your dad has no idea what he's talking about then. stability control is an amazing system, and i'm assuming especially amazing on the S550. </TD></TR></TABLE><p>Oh believe me, you have no idea how many HOURS we've argued over this <IMG NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.germancarfans.com/images/forums/1orglaugh.gif" BORDER="0">

[Santeno]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yes, a speed limiter is a lot different than stability control in its purpose<br>but if you say it's vital for evebody's safety to have it turned on in order to stop idiot drivers, then give me one reason that all new cars, or at leasts those with stability control, shouldn't have a speed limiter set at 70mph or so.</TD></TR></TABLE><br>because speed limiters arent really used by automakers to protect drivers. they are used to prevent the mechanical parts of the car from being abused by being pushed to their practica limits. the same is true of rev limiters.

[olegk21]

true, but they could be

[anonms]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">true, but they could be</TD></TR></TABLE><br>Yet they aren't.

[Excellerator]

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD><i>Quote, originally posted by <b>olegk21</b> &raquo;</i></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">give me one reason that all new cars, or at leasts those with stability control, shouldn't have a speed limiter set at 70mph or so.</TD></TR></TABLE><p>There's a road in Texas and the speed limit on it is 80. If this "speed limiter idea" ever came into effect, I would say all cars should have a default maximum speed of 85 miles per hour, and then have the customer pay extra to raise the limiter's setting if the vehicle will be raced or used for high-speed purposes. That money could be spent towards improving roads and informing people on the proper use of safety systems such as ABS, stability control, etc. Wasn't there a study done a while ago saying most people don't know how to effectively use ABS? <p>On a little side note, the Camry's speedometer goes up to 140... are those numbers just there to "even out" the look of the gauge or something?

[mzoltarp]

they are indeed there to even out the look and to give the impression of speed

[Miyka'el]

Not only is ESC effective, it's <B>the most significant safety device introduced to the automobile since the seatbelt</B>.<p><I>Designo</I>, you can assure your parents that it is indeed not all marketing hype by showing them this independently-conducted study by the IIHS:<br><A HREF="http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html</A><p>Those are some sobering results!<p>Mike