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-   -   FCA and PSA in merger talks (http://www.carspyshots.net/showthread.php?t=24723)

paranoidgarliclover 10-30-2019 07:03 AM

FCA and PSA in merger talks
 
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-merger-talks/

Sounds like this is far from a done deal. I think pairing a struggles US brand w/ ones that many Americans are either unfamiliar w/, or suspicious of, is not a great idea, but.... I guess this would allow FCA to focus on Fiat 500 derivatives, Jeeps, and trucks, while PSA fills in the rest? It could also bring Opel to the US....

mick78 10-30-2019 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranoidgarliclover (Post 499929)
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-merger-talks/

Sounds like this is far from a done deal. I think pairing a struggles US brand w/ ones that many Americans are either unfamiliar w/, or suspicious of, is not a great idea, but.... I guess this would allow FCA to focus on Fiat 500 derivatives, Jeeps, and trucks, while PSA fills in the rest? It could also bring Opel to the US....

TO a certain degree, I think there are logic points, as you point out e.g. the PSA lineup would pretty much fill the non existent lineup between larger sedans, Jeep and the FIat 500 on the other hand; PSA and Fiat have long cooperated on commercial vehicles, and Fiat and Opel did share some development in the short lived GM/Fiat marriage, so the companies know each other, which might help. PSA is also pushing a lot into EVs, something FCA barely has right now, on the other hand FCA has a lot of AWD know how, when the whole PSA group doesn't offer a single AWD car. Plus, it would give PSA an existing dealership infrastructure in the US, whilst PSA is very strong in China.

If done right, it could work; But there is also of course a potential for failure, no question; It would be fun though to see Opels, that look exactly like Buicks (or lets say Buick adopted the European Opel look in the last 10 years) - even the unrelated non GM era models - being sold at a Chrysler dealer (I'm sure, that the GM based stuff like the Insignia - being identical to the Buick Regal - would be embargoed in the Opel/PSA sales contract anyway)

It could also finally give the Giorgio platform some desperately needed volume, if say next gen. Insignia and a large Peugeot would return to RWD (504/505 and Opel fans would rejoice at the thought)

Tomm14 10-30-2019 01:20 PM

I hope the merger will succeed, would be very interesting :)

disap.ed 10-30-2019 02:54 PM

I hold Tavares in high regard, so this has probably the highest chance of succeeding of all the scenarios making the news these last years.

FCA doesn't have a competitive FWD platform right now and neither electric cars, which PSA is now starting selling.

Opel could be sold as Chryslers as Mick said, the RWD platform could also be used by the DS brand for example.

Crash 10-30-2019 03:52 PM

I guess I'm aligning w/ Paranoid on this one...however, FCA needs to do something. Their line up is beyond embarrassing - and will prove to be very short sighted... When the next recession comes (and all those truck sales start going away), or when people realize that the Jeep products are WAY overpriced (and they have to reduce - hurting profitability).

Their untapped cash cows are Dodge and Chrysler.
Dodge has Durango (WAY long in the tooth), Challenger / Charger (WAY long in the tooth) and Journey; which is universally hailed as the worst crossover in North America.

Chrysler has 300 (WAY past it's best before date) and Pascifica - a great niche product that doesn't sell in meaningful quantities.

All the other brands of FCA are largely irrelevant in North America.

My concern w/ PSA is they don't have the crossovers that North Americans want...so, where is the upside?

pjl35 10-30-2019 11:08 PM

Update: https://www.carscoops.com/2019/10/ps...rger-with-fca/

rv65 10-31-2019 01:23 AM

This merger would give PSA access to their distribution network for both parts and vehicles. Chrysler has a pretty big dealer and parts network, and PSA would not have to build a new one from scratch if they are to return to the US.

Tomm14 10-31-2019 03:14 AM

Renaissance of the Fiat Grande Punto thanks to the CMP platform :D

2o6 10-31-2019 07:19 AM

This actually isn’t a bad idea. There’s a lot of synergies that can be had with FCA. All of the FWD platforms they’re using are revisions of very old chassis and it shows. Then, the LX platform and it’s ancient basis....

mick78 10-31-2019 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 499933)
... Challenger / Charger (WAY long in the tooth)

Chrysler has 300 (WAY past it's best before date) and Pascifica - a great niche product that doesn't sell in meaningful quantities.

My concern w/ PSA is they don't have the crossovers that North Americans want...so, where is the upside?

Yet it seems the Challenger outsells the newer Mustang and Camaro recently; It is old, true, but to me, the most American muscle out of the three, not only because of teh Demon and Hellcat, but because the Mustang feels to European and the latest Camaro is just weird and ugly;

PSA does however have some very competent small to compact CUVs (the Peugeot 3008 is among the best selling and highest regarded in Europe in it'S segment), and this is where Jeep resp. the Giorgio platform could come into play; A redressed Jeep Cherokee or Alfa Stelvio could work very well as large Peugeot or Opel CUVs (not only for the US) - of course, as Chrysler or Dodge as well, if PSA invests some cash, what they have, unlike FCA;


Quote:

Originally Posted by 2o6 (Post 499940)
. All of the FWD platforms theyíre using are revisions of very old chassis and it shows. Then, the LX platform and itís ancient basis....

TO be fair, I think this is what the Giorgio platform was developed for, even if the US versions are now long overdue, likely due to cash (and probably the sedan segment dying, or a combination of both); PSA has only smaller platforms, EMP2 is very competent, but FWD only, and to small to base a proper full size sedan on it; However, it would be ideal to replace the aging FCA platforms (the 500X/Renegade trace their roots to the Grande Punto, the Cherokee even further back to the Fiat Stilo, although the platform was heavily revised for the Giulietta, and the later again for the US applications);

On the other hand, FCA seems about to launch a new, EV/Hybrid/Petrol compatible Fiat 500 and Panda, and PSA does not have a small platform to replace the 108/C1 after Toyota lleaves the project, so they could use the Fiat underpinnings at the bottom end of their lineup, and the Giorgio at the other.

Ascariss 10-31-2019 05:37 PM

exciting times ahead for sure.

paranoidgarliclover 11-01-2019 07:00 AM

It's official:

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...pe/4107243002/

Crash 11-01-2019 01:14 PM

Wow...Sergio finally got what he wanted.

I'm still struggling to understand how this will help North American sales. Hopefully it bring some much needed new products to the lineup. Does anyone know if the PSA products are engineered for North American markets? Is it an easy task to bring them here? If not - we won't see the fruits of this labour for at least another 3-4 years IMO.

paranoidgarliclover 11-01-2019 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 499947)
we won't see the fruits of this labour for at least another 3-4 years IMO.

PSA had already said that it was targeting a return to the US market in around 2026, so....

Ascariss 11-01-2019 06:08 PM

In alfa news, GTV and 8C cancelled

https://www.motor1.com/news/379837/a...-8c-cancelled/

Pretty sure alfa didn't perform any development of the GTV, no mules were testing, if any were it was at private tracks.

Guess crosovers make the most sense for them.

Nastka 11-01-2019 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascariss (Post 499949)
In alfa news, GTV and 8C cancelled

https://www.motor1.com/news/379837/a...-8c-cancelled/

Pretty sure alfa didn't perform any development of the GTV, no mules were testing, if any were it was at private tracks.

Guess crosovers make the most sense for them.

'Refocus Brand on it's Strenghts while Efficiently Deploying Capital' says it all...

Tomm14 11-02-2019 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranoidgarliclover (Post 499948)
PSA had already said that it was targeting a return to the US market in around 2026, so....


Tavares changed his plan for 2023 :)

paranoidgarliclover 11-02-2019 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomm14 (Post 499955)
Tavares changed his plan for 2023 :)

I really am quite interested to see how the US reacts to PSA cars. We (as a population) are infamously weird in our tastes, and, from the little I know of PSA cars, they seem so intensely European that I can't see them doing well here w/o brilliant marketing and some heavy modifications. But we shall see.

Tomm14 11-02-2019 11:25 PM

There was a video on YouTube of a Peugeot 508 II parked somewhere in the USA, and the people around were clearly interested :D

pjl35 11-03-2019 12:53 AM

I think Peugeot’s current styling would sell quite well here. Same for most Citroens.

Ascariss 11-04-2019 06:41 AM

Looking at Maserati's future, here is the upcoming roadmap

https://i.imgur.com/RCzwYHQ.jpg

Curious, next year an all new sportscar, electric at that, yet nothing testing? or did I miss some prototypes?

mick78 11-04-2019 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascariss (Post 499949)
In alfa news, GTV and 8C cancelled

https://www.motor1.com/news/379837/a...-8c-cancelled/

Pretty sure alfa didn't perform any development of the GTV, no mules were testing, if any were it was at private tracks.

Guess crosovers make the most sense for them.

It makes a lot of sense, to me, the whole GTV and 8C were anyway more or less dead at birth concpets, the whole coupe market is shrinking away, with rumors of Mercedes killing of the S and C Coupes, no words on a Lexus RC replacement (and at Audi, the A5 SB seems to comfortably outsell teh reuglar 2 door, so I wouldn't be surprised if the A5 ends up being a coupe sedan only in next gen), smaller ones like the TT simply becoming CUVs. IN that climate, Alfa would be crazy to put money into a mid sized coupe that no one will buy anyway. Whilst enthusiasts seem to be lud in forums, they are usually horrible customers, waiting for second hand cars or buying just a poster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ascariss (Post 499972)

Curious, next year an all new sportscar, electric at that, yet nothing testing? or did I miss some prototypes?

FCA usually has really short prototype cycles, so anything more than say 6 months away, is usually not out in the streets. They also avoid that month-long official prototype teasing that some brands (VAG, cough cough, Land Rover, cough cough) seem to enjoy recently...

Then again, I'm sure that the whole PSA Merger (given how quickly things went now, the whole background procedure must have been going on for a while) certainly also has put some delays on on or the other product time lines, not that FCA was usually to much on time with launches anyway.

Tomm14 11-04-2019 05:50 PM

The official birth of the merger could be signed next month(before Christmas) :)

At this time I guess we will know the name of the entity :confused:
I go for PSAFCA :D

disap.ed 11-06-2019 11:07 AM

The Giulietta on RWD platform made no sense to begin with either (even if a RWD compact in the sense of the Brera concept sounds and would look nice), so maybe will see it later based on the PSA FWD platform (EMP2 resp. its successor)

mick78 11-06-2019 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disap.ed (Post 500028)
The Giulietta on RWD platform made no sense to begin with either (even if a RWD compact in the sense of the Brera concept sounds and would look nice), so maybe will see it later based on the PSA FWD platform (EMP2 resp. its successor)

Well a RWD Giuletta would depend a lot on how scalable the platform really is; SO far, the Stelvio and Giulia share pretty much an identical setup with same track/wheelbase, so we don't know for sure; Main thing for me is that so far, the platform only uses large (>2 l ) engines, so how much work it would be to adapt a smaller engine family for the C-segment (let#s be honest, C-segment hatchbacks happen nowadays mostly with sub 1.5 mostly 3 cylinders, larger engines only in low volume hot hatch versions); If the car had volume, and say a Lancia relative to increase that even more, it could work, but in FCA's current (pre and probably also after merger) condition, pitting it on a FWD platform makes a lot more sense. And EMP2 would be a very competent starting point.

Sure, a RWD Giulietta would have made the new BMW Focus a bit ridiculous, but FCA is not in the position to try that...

MrMGMan 11-10-2019 04:23 PM

Does anyone think that the combined PSA/FCA group would be wise to pull out of the Chinese market, given that FCA sells next to no cars there, and PSA's sales have dwindled from circa 750,000 units in 2015 to under just over 90,000 so far in 2019?

2o6 11-10-2019 05:47 PM

I don’t think that’s wise; I think they just need to streamline. Jeep sells a few units in China, and PSA did at once point sell a lot of models. I think they need to figure out how to get sales up.

MrMGMan 11-11-2019 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2o6 (Post 500096)
I donít think thatís wise; I think they just need to streamline. Jeep sells a few units in China, and PSA did at once point sell a lot of models. I think they need to figure out how to get sales up.

Jeep's currently the biggest selling of the PSA/FCA brands that operate in China, but its sales are in free fall. From 200,000 in 2017 to 124,000 in 2018, and just under 52,000 so far in 2019.

Crash 11-14-2019 06:54 PM

I have to wonder how PSA feels about this....40,000 cars/trucks is A LOT. Not a good look for FCA right now....

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/14/...-bank-dealers/

Crash 11-21-2019 06:04 PM

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/11/21/...l-pump-recall/

More bad news...700,000 recalled...damn!

Crash 12-02-2019 10:35 PM

https://electrek.co/2019/12/02/stran...tric-vehicles/

So, basically one bankrupt company (Faraday) working with another company that has a questionable future (FCA) outside of the merger.

I guess to negatives equals a positive?

Tomm14 12-17-2019 05:19 PM

Tomorrow wednesday the Memorandum should be signed, today the Peugeot family(and yesterday the french State)gave the agreement for the fusion with FCA :D

Crash 12-17-2019 05:53 PM

I just have a bad feeling about this (to quote Han Solo).

Let's hope this creates some immediate products shown (ie Detroit Auto Show) with fast tracking to production in North America (within 12 months); cause 300, Challenger, Charger, Durango and Journey aren't getting any younger.

pjl35 12-17-2019 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash (Post 500480)
I just have a bad feeling about this (to quote Han Solo).

Let's hope this creates some immediate products shown (ie Detroit Auto Show) with fast tracking to production in North America (within 12 months); cause 300, Challenger, Charger, Durango and Journey aren't getting any younger.

Well, NAIAS is in June starting in 2020, so if that's what we're waiting for we've got another 6 months.

pjl35 12-18-2019 01:55 PM

Merger finalized, no word on the official combined name:

https://www.motor1.com/news/388557/f...rger-official/

mick78 12-18-2019 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjl35 (Post 500483)
Merger finalized, no word on the official combined name:

Let's hope for them, that in 5 years time, we won't think that "Titanic" would have been appropriate ;)

paranoidgarliclover 12-18-2019 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mick78 (Post 500485)
Let's hope for them, that in 5 years time, we won't think that "Titanic" would have been appropriate ;)

Or Hindenburg....

Tomm14 12-19-2019 03:10 AM

http://europe.autonews.com/automaker...psa-platforms/

Logic way :D

boston 01-01-2020 12:27 AM

Driven several of the Peugeot and Citroen cars and compact Minivans as rental cars in England. They are perfect transportation without excitement,efficiently designed and easy to live with/drive.

Not much of a plaudit, I know, but thats what the majority of people like.

Crash 01-01-2020 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boston (Post 500525)
Driven several of the Peugeot and Citroen cars and compact Minivans as rental cars in England. They are perfect transportation without excitement,efficiently designed and easy to live with/drive.

Not much of a plaudit, I know, but thats what the majority of people like.

Toyota built their brand around that logic. Problem is they had the QC to back it up; FCA? Not even close.


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