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  #21  
Old 07-31-2017, 12:08 AM
paranoidgarliclover paranoidgarliclover is offline
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Originally Posted by Levi View Post
Glad Tesla forces the others to build BEVs. ICEVs are a relic compared to today's tech. They are what film is to digital photos, what tape is to mp3.
I'm not an engineer, but I don't know if I'd go that far yet. The infrastructure needed to make ICE irrelevant is still not in place. I think we're not even at the point of VHS vs. Betamax yet....

I assume Tesla is "forcing" other makes to build EVs b/c other auto makes want to capture the type of customers who are buying Teslas (high-wealth individuals) and not b/c Tesla actually has shown that building EVs is at all profitable....

Last edited by paranoidgarliclover; 07-31-2017 at 12:14 AM.
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2017, 01:34 PM
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swizzle swizzle is offline
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Tesla isn't forcing anyone to do anything.
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  #23  
Old 07-31-2017, 02:15 PM
drugmirko drugmirko is offline
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meh, this is not an automobile.. .this is an appliance!
...like washing machines and microwave ovens... built to perform a task without you getting to much involved or bothered with. everything about it screams that while its interior is and ode to it... now I understand why they are so manically trying to make it self-driven... :/
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2017, 04:07 PM
Levi Levi is online now
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Originally Posted by drugmirko View Post
meh, this is not an automobile.. .this is an appliance!
...like washing machines and microwave ovens... built to perform a task without you getting to much involved or bothered with. everything about it screams that while its interior is and ode to it... now I understand why they are so manically trying to make it self-driven... :/
It is up to interpretation and personal preference. I your definition Alfa Romeo is an automobile, for swizzle, Alfa is garbage. For me garbage is any American car. If prefer good appliance products than crap overpriced marketing bullshxt like anything German.

I really do not like Tesla, not my thing thought there are some good aspects there, interior of Model 3, minus the screen is very nice. I do not care if Tesla will exist in 10 years or not. Nor do I care much about other brands, though they are better, what I care is about BEV infrastructure, and the fact the Telsa forces the incumbents to also build BEVs will help with developing the charging infrastructure faster, rather than in 20 years.

While I am for protecting environment, yet do not believe "science" and "global warming", not enough educated to understand that, I prefer BEVs because they are technically superior, and will be ultimately superior once battery tech evolves.


Let all bring make BEVs. Don't car about autonomous driving. People can take the autonomous chauffeur/car-sharing/taxi/bus/tram/train/plane.
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  #25  
Old 07-31-2017, 05:33 PM
Crash Crash is offline
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Tesla isn't forcing anyone to do anything.
Force? No. STRONGLY influence? Yes.

Tesla (according to Bob Lutz) is the reason we have the Volt. Prior to Tesla Model S - few car companies had dedicated resources to the EV technology. Now Mercedes, VW, Audi, BMW (admittedly they already were dabbling in EV-ish cars), Jag, Hyundai, Kia, Volvo and more now have PILES of resources dedicated to EV technology.

Admittedly, the original Green car company (Toyota) is relatively late to the game in terms of dedicated EV technology.

This Bloomberg article has an interesting comparison to BMW / Mercedes, and some good driving experiences.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ges-everything
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  #26  
Old 07-31-2017, 08:03 PM
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swizzle swizzle is offline
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Force? No. STRONGLY influence?...
Not even that.

The EV market is still too small to have a viable business case. Tesla is propped up with taxpayer money and hot air. Moreover, EV technology is not cost effective for the average consumer. Who wants to spend $45K for an $18K Chevy hatchback? Range is OK but recharge time isn't. Fast charging your battery pack will destroy it. Sure you can do it in a pinch, but EV technology will be ready when it can be recharged as quickly as filling a tank and last as long as a gas tank.

Tesla's technology is no different/better than Bolt/Leaf technology.

People in the Tesla cult will say differently.

I predict the pioneer in EV technology will be Toyota. Major manufacturers will hop in when it becomes economically feasible.
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  #27  
Old 08-01-2017, 10:03 AM
Levi Levi is online now
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
Not even that.

The EV market is still too small to have a viable business case. Tesla is propped up with taxpayer money and hot air. Moreover, EV technology is not cost effective for the average consumer. Who wants to spend $45K for an $18K Chevy hatchback? Range is OK but recharge time isn't. Fast charging your battery pack will destroy it. Sure you can do it in a pinch, but EV technology will be ready when it can be recharged as quickly as filling a tank and last as long as a gas tank.

Tesla's technology is no different/better than Bolt/Leaf technology.

People in the Tesla cult will say differently.

I predict the pioneer in EV technology will be Toyota. Major manufacturers will hop in when it becomes economically feasible.
They are already hopping in, before it is too late. If Telsa 3 was not, all BEV plans from Daimler, VAG, BMW, Toyota, Volvo, etc... would be for 2030 rather than 2020.
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  #28  
Old 08-01-2017, 12:56 PM
Crash Crash is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
Not even that.

The EV market is still too small to have a viable business case. Tesla is propped up with taxpayer money and hot air. Moreover, EV technology is not cost effective for the average consumer. Who wants to spend $45K for an $18K Chevy hatchback? Range is OK but recharge time isn't. Fast charging your battery pack will destroy it. Sure you can do it in a pinch, but EV technology will be ready when it can be recharged as quickly as filling a tank and last as long as a gas tank.

Tesla's technology is no different/better than Bolt/Leaf technology.

People in the Tesla cult will say differently.

I predict the pioneer in EV technology will be Toyota. Major manufacturers will hop in when it becomes economically feasible.
We'll agree to disagree I guess.

You don't need to fast charge your car every time. I'm a good example; I drive about 150KM's per day - so when I get home (once I have my Model 3 or Model S), I plug in and the next day - I have a fully charged car that can let me go about my business. On the rare example that I need a fast charge - I can go to the Tesla fast charge stations and top up in 20 mins (enough time for me to grab a coffee, go for a pee and check email).

Tesla taking advantage of government grants / rebates / etc is perfectly fine. They're doing absolutely nothing illegal or wrong. In fact, at least they're providing meaningful jobs; the Gigafactory and Fremont plant each employ upwards of 10,000 people. ANY state government would trip over themselves to get those types of jobs. Separately, I'd rather government invest in technology / jobs on this side of the pond vs. sending more to China (who aggressively lures companies with massive tax advantages). Lastly - all governments aggressively subsidize the domestic oil industry; which is a finite resource that offers increasingly more expensive extraction costs.

The EV market is indeed young. It's also the future. Regardless of who you place your bets on for car companies - if we can get a product that can travel 500+ km's on a product that can be charged literally anywhere with a plug on an energy that is easily 100% renewable - why wouldn't we? That scenario exists today; imagine what the industry will look like in 10, 20 or 30 years? Manufacturer preference of Tesla vs. Lexus is no different than if you're a GM fan vs. a Ford fan or Kia fan vs. a Toyota fan.

Am I predicting the demise of the I.C.E? Absolutely not. However, competition is good - and with that comes better products for the future; be it EV or I.C.E. Telsa just happens to be on the forefront of it.

Last edited by Crash; 08-01-2017 at 12:59 PM.
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  #29  
Old 08-01-2017, 01:52 PM
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swizzle swizzle is offline
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They are already hopping in, before it is too late...
Total BS. It's still too early for EVs to have a viable business case for manufacturers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
We'll agree to disagree I guess.

You don't need to fast charge your car every time...

Tesla taking advantage of government grants... is perfectly fine. They're doing absolutely nothing illegal or wrong...
We definitely agree to disagree. Tesla is only in business because of taxpayer money flowing in which may not be illegal but it is unethical if the business does not make a profit. Tesla is NOT profitable in and of itself. If anything Elon hasn't bothered to try to be profitable because Obama was throwing cash at him. Elon had better hope Daddy is equally transfixed by him.

Companies cannot afford to lose money indefinitely, but Tesla can because of the welfare check. That is why I said to anger boy above that the business case isn't there. The Leaf is a good product, but sells at a trickle. The Bolt is a good product but cannot be given away.

I do believe that when Toyota/Lexus and Mercedes hop in to the market, Tesla will be in deep caca.
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  #30  
Old 08-01-2017, 03:03 PM
Crash Crash is offline
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Are you opposed to Government subsides for Oil / Gas? Corn? China doing the same? It's all corporate welfare. He's playing by the rules; ethics have little to do with it. The current POTUS too tremendous heat for his ability to write off VERY questionable losses - allowing him tax avoidance for many years...that's not overly ethical - but he played by the rules...
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