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  #61  
Old 01-03-2018, 02:30 AM
The Car-man The Car-man is offline
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Originally Posted by Crash View Post
And Bob Lutz said that without Tesla, there would be no Volt, which lead to the Bolt.
And?

Volt is basically GM EV1 2.0
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  #62  
Old 01-03-2018, 02:34 AM
paranoidgarliclover paranoidgarliclover is offline
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Originally Posted by Crash View Post
And Bob Lutz said that without Tesla, there would be no Volt, which lead to the Bolt.
Wait, how is that possible? The roadster was Tesla's first car, right? If wikipedia is correct, that was released around 2008. The Volt concept had already been shown by early 2007.
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  #63  
Old 01-03-2018, 02:37 AM
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Naga Royal Guard Naga Royal Guard is offline
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Lutz is a senile old dingbat.
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  #64  
Old 01-03-2018, 02:43 AM
Crash Crash is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
It's lovely to believe that and Tesla thanks you for swallowing the pill, but it's a patently false assertion. After all, Nissan was Leafing at the same time as Tesla. So by your twisted logic there would be no Model 3 were it not for the Nissan Leaf, eGolf, Spark EV, and Bolt.

.
Debatable about the Leaf. Nissan had been dabbling in EV tech for a while; but the Leaf was largely a response to The Volt - which was largely because Lutz didn’t like being upstaged by some California tech company - and desperately wanted to convince the public GM wasn’t exclusively about trucks and Hummers. He saw the $ loss associated w/ Volt as a small price to pay for the positive PR the car would create (environmentally friendly, GM had some engineering chops left,etc); I’ll add his thoughts largely worked and the Volt did all that AND gave GM employees somethung they could be proud of...

Goshn saw what was happening with Tesla, heard what GM was doing and wanted a piece of the action, so sped up production of the leaf to beat Volt to market (by a month or so).... of course, par for Nissan, the quality has been horrendous - and their batteries degrade faster than the sheet metal of a 1978 Honda Civic.

The rest came as companies fast tracked development of EV’s to take advantage of carbon tax credits... hence they’re regular ICE cars with batteries strapped in...only notable exception is Bolt; where it’s going to be the spring spring board for many other EV based products. In fact, if GM was smart, they’d buy Tesla, make it their new Caddy line and save a PILE in R&D.
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  #65  
Old 01-03-2018, 02:46 AM
Crash Crash is offline
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[quote=paranoidgarliclover;489674]Wait, how is that possible? The roadster was Tesla's first car, right? If wikipedia is correct, that was released around 2008. The Volt concept had already been shown by early 2007.[/QUOTE

Tesla had been pushing them for a while, but it in true Tesla form, they were delayed many times... it’s in the Revenge of the Electric car documentary and also in Lutz’s book Car guys vs. bean counters
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  #66  
Old 01-03-2018, 02:48 AM
Crash Crash is offline
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Originally Posted by The Car-man View Post
And?

Volt is basically GM EV1 2.0
I’m agreeing with you and supporting your POV.

Just adding that GM wanted zero to do w/ EV’s - but got back into it with Volt b/c of Tesla.

Good call on Volt being EV1 2.0... the ‘t-shape’ battery was a direct lift from EV1
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  #67  
Old 01-03-2018, 03:40 AM
The Car-man The Car-man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Just adding that GM wanted zero to do w/ EV’s - but got back into it with Volt b/c of Tesla.
Tesla fans like to idealize that Tesla was the reason GM build the Volt, but your numbers simply doesn´t add up, Volt concept was unveiled in January 2007, Roadster in 2008, Volt and Leaf where introduced in 2010, with a minimum of 2 years of development, the green light should be signed at least in 2008, With just about 2500 units sold, the Roadster is insignificant to be a threat for GM or any company, the model S, Tesla first successful car, came until 2012.

The reason of the Volt, is that Toyota at the time was breathing in the neck of GM for the leadership in global sales, and with the Prius, Toyota had the green leadership at the time. Lutz wanted to take back to GM with the Volt, in the documentary "The revenge of the EV" he states that the roadster helped him to convince the board to greenlight the project, but all the program development predates the roadster, so Tesla is far from being the "reason why".

Last edited by The Car-man; 01-03-2018 at 03:44 AM.
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  #68  
Old 01-03-2018, 04:03 AM
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Naga Royal Guard Naga Royal Guard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash View Post
Debatable about the Leaf. Nissan had been dabbling in EV tech for a while; but the Leaf was largely a response to The Volt - which was largely because Lutz didn’t like being upstaged by some California tech company - and desperately wanted to convince the public GM wasn’t exclusively about trucks and Hummers. He saw the $ loss associated w/ Volt as a small price to pay for the positive PR the car would create (environmentally friendly, GM had some engineering chops left,etc); I’ll add his thoughts largely worked and the Volt did all that AND gave GM employees somethung they could be proud of...

Goshn saw what was happening with Tesla, heard what GM was doing and wanted a piece of the action, so sped up production of the leaf to beat Volt to market (by a month or so).... of course, par for Nissan, the quality has been horrendous - and their batteries degrade faster than the sheet metal of a 1978 Honda Civic.

The rest came as companies fast tracked development of EV’s to take advantage of carbon tax credits... hence they’re regular ICE cars with batteries strapped in...only notable exception is Bolt; where it’s going to be the spring spring board for many other EV based products. In fact, if GM was smart, they’d buy Tesla, make it their new Caddy line and save a PILE in R&D.
Lutz also had a Silverado 2500 Dualie sized hard-on for the very profitable prius.
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  #69  
Old 01-03-2018, 01:57 PM
Crash Crash is offline
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Originally Posted by The Car-man View Post
Tesla fans like to idealize that Tesla was the reason GM build the Volt, but your numbers simply doesn´t add up, .
They're not MY numbers. I'm going by what Bob Lutz said in Revenge of the Electric car - as well as what he said in his book.
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