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  #21  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:49 AM
mario_128 mario_128 is offline
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Originally Posted by paranoidgarliclover View Post
Does Opel have a lot of production capacity outside of Germany? My understanding is that all PSA would conceivably get is a factory in Germany. The production costs there would be quite high, no?

Edit --> Never mind, this article explains a bit more:

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/gm...ugeot-citroen/
Costs aren't everything, productivity matters. I would say that your higher paid german worker is much more proactive than the french worker.
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  #22  
Old 02-16-2017, 12:57 PM
drugmirko drugmirko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoidgarliclover View Post
Does Opel have a lot of production capacity outside of Germany? My understanding is that all PSA would conceivably get is a factory in Germany. The production costs there would be quite high, no?

Edit --> Never mind, this article explains a bit more:

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/gm...ugeot-citroen/
about that questiom... picture says more than 1000 words

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kjWHqur_S...B/s1600/62.jpg
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  #23  
Old 02-16-2017, 01:11 PM
mick78 mick78 is offline
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Originally Posted by mario_128 View Post
Costs aren't everything, productivity matters. I would say that your higher paid german worker is much more proactive than the french worker.
I'm not sure that a French worker earns considerably more than a French, both countries have rather high wages and strong unions with a love for action , both not your dream place for setting up a factory (that said, Opel also has factories in Poland, Hungary - both favorable - and UK and Austria, both again high wage countries). Generally nowadys factories have high grades of automation, so salaries are not the only - or major -decisive factor anymore, but rather government subsidiaries (for building factories in areas of high unemployment) and flexible work accepted by unions (to be able to shut of lines flexible if demand fluctuates), plus possible integration into supplier chains.

Altogether I don't think that Opel factories are that much of an asset for PSA, more the possible growth in figures for economies of scale, thus enabling their platforms and engines be utilized in more cars. Also a factory in UK might seem attractive for some post Brexit tariff deals with the UK government (PSA closed their own UK factory - with not too positive response - a few years ago).

Finally there are rumors that GM might sweeten the deal with letting PSA use some of their US Dealer network/facilities for reentering the US market, which PSA is very keen on - especially for teh DS brand, and if true, might indeed be the icing on the cake....
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  #24  
Old 02-16-2017, 02:23 PM
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swizzle swizzle is offline
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Oh joy! Low quality French cars for the USA!!
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  #25  
Old 02-16-2017, 02:27 PM
mick78 mick78 is offline
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Oh joy! Low quality French cars for the USA!!
Actually Peugeots of late at least have done rather well in most surveys, actually up with th ebest in terms of reliability. At least not worse than many cars that sell in the US...
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  #26  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:20 PM
boston boston is offline
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I've driven several of the current crop of Citroens. They are on par with most mass market cars sold in the US.
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  #27  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:05 AM
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swizzle swizzle is offline
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Originally Posted by boston View Post
I've driven several of the current crop of Citroens. They are on par with most mass market cars sold in the US.
I'd still bet--though--that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai-Kia will beat them for reliability.
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  #28  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:50 AM
mick78 mick78 is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
I'd still bet--though--that Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai-Kia will beat them for reliability.
According to JD Power UK, at least Peugeot beat some of those brands in dependability. Citroen was worse, but then again, they do have an older and cheaper range of cars, and the C4 e.g. uses a much older platform than the 308, so some of the improvements are still not there

http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...dability-study

Also some other studies rank them nearly at the opposite end of the list where they have been probably 10 years ago.
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  #29  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:31 PM
drugmirko drugmirko is offline
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exactly... French brands are not even closely as unreliable as their "reputation", or should I say, "common prejudice" suggests... at least not any more, for quite some time now...
even though I could (again!) state my own 30+ yrs long experience with them (with or without 20 yrs of "first hand" comparison with "far more notable German&premium" brands), "large scale" statistics clearly shows that they are "as good as the next one", or even "slightly better" than some ot the "more cherished" brands...:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...facturers-2016
http://www.reliabilityindex.com/manufacturer

simple fact is that there's no big differences in reliability today. and that you have almost equal chances to get the "rotten egg" from any of them... as well as completely "just fill it-up&drive" non problematic experience. reliability as such these days has much more to do with owners attitude towards the use and maintenance of the vehicle, than it has to do with brand's alleged "renown" as such...

Last edited by drugmirko; 02-17-2017 at 05:33 PM.
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  #30  
Old 02-17-2017, 07:41 PM
Swallow Doretti Swallow Doretti is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick78 View Post
Citroen was worse, but then again, they do have an older and cheaper range of cars, and the C4 e.g. uses a much older platform than the 308, so some of the improvements are still not there
Typically older cars do better, not worse, on reliability, as the manufacturer works the bugs out of assembly. New platforms and new components often bring new headaches as issues pop once the line is running at capacity. That's why VW has seen quality improve in the US while Honda's quality has slipped.

Of course, Europeans may also have a different take on reliability and quality:

Quote:
Originally Posted by drugmirko
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/91220/the-most-and-least-reliable-car-manufacturers-2016
Considering Tesla topped this survey, and these are the same cars sold in the US. That said, I highly doubt a modern PSA vehicle couldn't at least manage quality on par with, say, Nissan, which is far better than FCA if not up to some other Asian makes.

The bigger problem for PSA before entering the US is still the lack of product, not to mention a US-based manufacturing plant and the fact that the coming recession will surely reduce the overall market size.
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