CarSpyShots
Quick Member Login:
Forgot password?
Forum Statistics:
Forum Members:
Total Threads:
Total Posts:


There are users
currently browsing forums.
  FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:13 AM
swizzle's Avatar
swizzle swizzle is offline
Raconteur
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 25,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by paranoidgarliclover View Post
I think what swizzle means is that a plug-in is probably more convenient for most people b/c of huge lack of hydrogen fuel station..... At least in the US.

Truth be told, he's probably right. I do think, though, that hydrogen probably makes more sense in the long term, if the infrastructure can be built. I can't imagine that Toyota, Honda, MB, and Hyundai could all be wrong, esp w/ the development $$$ they must be spending.
Hydrogen makes ZERO sense.

The infrastructure for hydrogen just doesn't exist which renders the technology pointless. Why buy something you can't "fill up"? A plug-in EV is by far more logical.

Nationwide infrastructure for hydrogen will not be built because there are not enough FCVs on the road to justify stations and because there is no infrastructure, FCVs won't be bought in quantity. They cancel each other out.

EVs have won already in public opinion.

What WILL happen is the plug-in EVs will win the race to displace ICE to the point that people simply will not be interested in FCV.

This is a massive stumble for Hyundai.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:24 AM
Naga Royal Guard's Avatar
Naga Royal Guard Naga Royal Guard is offline
CSS Oldtimer
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,405
Default

Hydrogen will decimate elon musk.
__________________
I think I fell in love with a porn star
And got married in the bathroom
Honeymoon on the dance floor
And got divorced by the end of the night
Thats one Hell of a life. (K. West)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-10-2018, 03:31 AM
Modern Design Modern Design is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 91
Default

A free energy device/1 electric motor per wheel is the best technology ever developed for use in transportation design.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-10-2018, 11:47 AM
drugmirko drugmirko is offline
CSS Oldtimer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,994
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
Hydrogen makes ZERO sense.

The infrastructure for hydrogen just doesn't exist which renders the technology pointless. Why buy something you can't "fill up"? A plug-in EV is by far more logical.

Nationwide infrastructure for hydrogen will not be built because there are not enough FCVs on the road to justify stations and because there is no infrastructure, FCVs won't be bought in quantity. They cancel each other out.

EVs have won already in public opinion.

What WILL happen is the plug-in EVs will win the race to displace ICE to the point that people simply will not be interested in FCV.

This is a massive stumble for Hyundai.
well.... if you thinking in "next week, next month, next year" terms, you might be right! but, this is rather "short sited" thinking cause, if this argument would "hold water" in long terms, we would never have had ICE powered cars.... since, when they emerged, the "same logic" applied to them too... there were "not enough ICE's on the road to justify stations" let alone all other infrastructure needed for ICE fuel production and distribution! can you imagine how much funds went over time into research, development and construction of complete fosile fuel business, from oil drilling/pumping (on, or off shore) industry, refinery technology and facilities, pipelines, shipping and all other things needed to get from crude oil to what (and where) me and you so conveniently, fast, easy and relatively cheap, fill into our cars? I can't, but "uncomprehendingly insane amount" would summarize it close enough I guess...

besides that... you have most likely seen something like this:



I don't know about america, but every city in europe have such block settlements. in large quantities all around the cities... :).
and somewhere within them, you probably noticed something like this:



this is called "transforming station" and is needed to drop the voltage level from XYZ kV, brought trough power line, to 0.4kV (or, in your case, 190V) that powers each building and/or flats... they come in "many varieties" from few kVA up to few 10MVA (depending on "the need"), so people in all those apartments can simultaneously cook, wash, or use electric power however they "find it fit", without fear of grid breakdown... :)

now... just imagine that everybody living in these apartments replace their ICE cars with EV (that has at least 40-60kWh battery capacity) and wants to charge it, at least overnight... can you imagine what kind of additional XYZ kV power line, how many and how "strong" transformer stations are needed to power all the necessary charging stations in such block settlement? and then, multiply that to EACH ONE of such settlement! ;)
even if we don't talk about where from will the needed amount of electricity come from, building such infrastructure is FAR from being cheap! in one such settlement, let alone in every one of them.... but it will be needed and is, as well as FCV infrastructure- currently non existing in needed quantity.

but, you're right... FCV at this moment doesn't have much sense for individual user! but it might have a lot of sense in truck cargo business... carrying couple 10kg of hidrogen makes much more sense than hauling "20%" of your load capabilities in battery weight (not to mention charging time) ;)... and if things in cargo hauling turn this way, FCV infrastructure will gradually come with it!

Last edited by drugmirko; 01-10-2018 at 11:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-10-2018, 11:50 AM
Levi Levi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 849
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naga Royal Guard View Post
Hydrogen will decimate elon musk.
20 years that hydrogen has been just around the corner. Same for battery powered cars, but these are at least already lurking (Tesla, Leaf/Zoe, Bolt, and more). Toyota Mirai is a Mirage.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:47 PM
Crash Crash is offline
CSS Oldtimer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drugmirko View Post
well.... if you thinking in "next week, next month, next year" terms, you might be right! but, this is rather "short sited" thinking cause, if this argument would "hold water" in long terms, we would never have had ICE powered cars.... since, when they emerged, the "same logic" applied to them too... h it!
Key difference is that gas was the only game in town. Further, those cars were affordable AND being produced in mass quantities.

The key difference that hydrogen offers vs. EV's is charging/filling times... and the EV technology is following a typical moores law for that; within 3 years you'll be able to travel 600KM after 5 minutes of charge. No consumer should really complain about that.

Hydrogen has lead to some interesting technological applications within EV's - but that's as far as it'll ever get with them. They're an interesting experiment that will never gain traction.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:22 PM
swizzle's Avatar
swizzle swizzle is offline
Raconteur
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 25,075
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drugmirko View Post
well.... if you thinking in "next week, next month, next year" terms, you might be right! but, this is rather "short sited"...
It makes no difference whether or not FCVs represent better technology because that is already immaterial. The plug in EV has won the minds of people and FCVs simply haven't.

I'm a pragmatist. Anyone who engages in pragmatic thinking will be of the same opinion that the public thinks EVs are the answer. They see charging stations being built in more and more places. That will encourage them to buy EVs. More EVs are coming and they are going to start be more attractive to consider as real cars rather than a green statement. That will put many more EVs on the road widening the imbalance of acceptance of EVs over FCVs. With more people buying EVs, there will be even more charging stations which will encourage still more people to buy EVs. People in the used car market will buy used EVs as they become available This will create a mass movement toward EVs. Any clear-thinking person can see that.

Energy companies will NOT build hydrogen stations on the possibility that someday, one day, that FCVs might actually populate the road because that is NOT how you make money. And yes, I get that you may think any kind of profit is evil; bless your heart! Of course, if you live in a socialist-fascist mindset you don't believe in freedom, so you'd just force people to bend to your will.

People will look at an EV vs an FCV and wonder why they would spend the same money on a car that is tethered to the few--and I mean FEW--hydrogen stations and they will buy the EV. That is the reality.

We can "what if" and "yeah but" and engage in utopian, pie-in-the sky self-delusion vis a vis the supposed automotive savior you seem to believe FCVs are, but the writing is on the wall.

I choose to see reality, accept it, and move forward.

You're absolutely free to embrace the ether of fantasy and find it glorious and I support you 100% in that.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-10-2018, 03:16 PM
drugmirko drugmirko is offline
CSS Oldtimer
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,994
Default

and I'm just saying that REAL MASS use of plug in battery EV carries its own bag of problems ;)... in many forms from "ecological" point of view of battery production or decommission, down to electric power production and distribution...
and that solving these problems will not be as "negligible" as general public thinks, nor as "cheap" as they expect..... all because huge el. power grid infrastructure investments (together with problems this will cause in highly developed&populated areas) needed for it, must be based on "profit" after all... ;)

on the other hand, same way can problems of missing FEV infrastructure be solved... if road cargo stops using diesel engines and opts for FEV (because charging a fully loaded "plug in" truck via socket is not really "an option") , than infrastructure doesn't have to be extremely wide at first... and could gradually grow with increase and expansion of use.

in the end, prevailing technology will most likely be the one that will have the highest energy density per unit, while having best ratio between safety of use, ease of use and time needed for refuel/recharge... ;)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-10-2018, 04:32 PM
Crash Crash is offline
CSS Oldtimer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drugmirko View Post
and I'm just saying that REAL MASS use of plug in battery EV carries its own bag of problems ;)... in many forms from "ecological" point of view of battery production or decommission, down to electric power production and distribution...
)
Ecologically speaking -EV's are about equal to ICE engines from power generation / distribution ONLY if 75%+ of the power generated comes from coal. I'm not aware of any state or province that this is the case; in Canada, the vast majority of our power comes from hydro. Non-issue.

In terms of battery creation / decommission -that's a debate for another day. Both sides of the spectrum have their lobbyists pushing hard for their POV; the truth lies somewhere in the middle I suspect.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-10-2018, 04:35 PM
Crash Crash is offline
CSS Oldtimer
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
It makes no difference whether or not FCVs represent better technology because that is already immaterial. The plug in EV has won the minds of people and FCVs simply haven't.

I'm a pragmatist. Anyone who engages in pragmatic thinking will be of the same opinion that the public thinks EVs are the answer. They see charging stations being built in more and more places. That will encourage them to buy EVs. More EVs are coming and they are going to start be more attractive to consider as real cars rather than a green statement. That will put many more EVs on the road widening the imbalance of acceptance of EVs over FCVs. With more people buying EVs, there will be even more charging stations which will encourage still more people to buy EVs. People in the used car market will buy used EVs as they become available This will create a mass movement toward EVs. Any clear-thinking person can see that.

Energy companies will NOT build hydrogen stations on the possibility that someday, one day, that FCVs might actually populate the road because that is NOT how you make money. And yes, I get that you may think any kind of profit is evil; bless your heart! Of course, if you live in a socialist-fascist mindset you don't believe in freedom, so you'd just force people to bend to your will.

People will look at an EV vs an FCV and wonder why they would spend the same money on a car that is tethered to the few--and I mean FEW--hydrogen stations and they will buy the EV. That is the reality.

We can "what if" and "yeah but" and engage in utopian, pie-in-the sky self-delusion vis a vis the supposed automotive savior you seem to believe FCVs are, but the writing is on the wall.

I choose to see reality, accept it, and move forward.

You're absolutely free to embrace the ether of fantasy and find it glorious and I support you 100% in that.
As an owner of 2 EV's...and I commute 150 KM per day; one of the things I realized (but didn't think about before buying) is that I charge at home...I've installed a dryer plug in my garage, and that gets me a full charge in a few hours....so, I come home, plug in and am ready to go in the AM...no more stops at gas stations. That's a wonderful convenience. When answering questions to my friends about EV's -they immediately 'got it' from the convenience stand point - so I think that might also be contributing to the dominant mind share vs. hydrogen.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:47 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Black Falcon Media Group Oy