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  #31  
Old 10-28-2014, 12:44 PM
Crash Crash is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
That's not what I said. I said that Audi needs something as "game-changingly" different as the current Optima (Schreyer's) was over the previous one.

My parenthetical point--apparently not made clearly--about the Hyundais is that Schreyer has dialed back the Sci-Fi looks and made both the Sonata and Genesis more tasteful.

As for the Sonata's sales, it could simply be that the competition is incentivizing more. You can get a Camry locally for 0% financing for 72 months, for example.
Camry is desperate. The 2015 extensive refresh should help - but consumer perceptions will remain for a while. Put a different way, why by a Camry when you can get a comparable (or much better) driving, better looking, better or comparable quality car in a Fusion, Mazda 6, Optima, Accord or Sonata (more on that below) or even 200.

As for Sonata sales - it's pretty rare that a 'brand new' version of a car immediately lights up the sales charts. There are assorted reasons for this (supply, competitive responses via discounts and product assortments). Sonata doesn't have the full product lineup in their dealers to allow consumers to make the right choice for them; personally, I think it's a really dumb move on their behalf. Lets bring consumers in with the lesser models - tell them better ones might be coming soon - why would anyone make a 5 year commitment with these parameters??

A4 is another example of VW/Audi releasing an average looking product - that has much riding on a name, that is rapidly being diminished in consumer eyes. They're quickly becoming the Acura of the VW family.
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  #32  
Old 10-29-2014, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mick78 View Post
...In Europe it always seems that ultimately the product is more important, we do have sales and extra warranties as well, but they never seem to have the same market impact. If a bestseller (what the Sonata is) gets renewed, no way a 0% finance on another model could seriously affect sales. People would still fly towards the new (well unless the new model is a total failure).
On a tangent, that is why VW is not doing as well as it could here in the States. In VW's Eurocentric mind, they "think" they have the best product--they don't by any stretch of the imagination--and usually wind up considerably more expensive when comparably equipped.

Let's see...loaded Fusion Energi or Passat TDI?--VERY similar in price--I'd take the Energi for its better looks and MUCH better MPG.

Here the market is VERY cut throat--especially at the Audi level. Fancy new style can cause a stampede. The Optima did that for Kia and the Fusion for Ford in perception. Price is a huge factor as well because there are not egregious differences in reliability--VW excepted.

Although I think the Mercedes C class is vile looking, it is more interesting to look at than the A4. For me the 3 Series is sublime, but I also like the Lexus IS. In the A4's price range it comes down VERY often to who has the most attractive lease.
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  #33  
Old 10-29-2014, 10:00 PM
Matski Matski is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
On a tangent, that is why VW is not doing as well as it could here in the States. In VW's Eurocentric mind, they "think" they have the best product--they don't by any stretch of the imagination--and usually wind up considerably more expensive when comparably equipped.
Could it be the case that in having to engineer cars that stack up on the global market, ends up making them too expensive when compared to USDM products. America seems like a cheap place to buy a car?
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  #34  
Old 10-30-2014, 12:57 AM
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Could it be the case that in having to engineer cars that stack up on the global market, ends up making them too expensive when compared to USDM products. America seems like a cheap place to buy a car?
Clearly NOT the case given that the American Fusion is a Mondeo. The Mondeo was clearly designed to those European standards and the Fusion is just a reskinned Mondeo, but it is priced to the penny against a Camry or Accord.

If I were thinking of buying a Passat (ours is disgusting) or an Accord, I'd go with the Accord. If I were thinking of buying a CC or an Accord, I'd still go with the Accord because it is a much better car in every way for $10K less when comparably equipped.

America is a place to buy cheap cars because we do not believe we should have to pay a premium to get premium.

The perfect illustration of that is the Genesis. The current one is indeed premium but not priced like one. The first Genesis was a (relatively speaking) strong seller. That Genesis sedan outsold all of Jaguar combined several years in a row. The new Genesis is looking like it will even better.

A4 vs Genesis (same price and features)...I'd go with the superior reliability of the Hyundai even if the snob appeal isn't there...yet.

The prices Europeans are willing to pay for a deadly dull Golf would cause derisive laughter in VW's face here. There, in Europe, my perception is that buyers think VW is supposedly a near-premium/premium car instead of a "people's car" like Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chevy.

A "VW" is much better than a "Skoda" yet they are the "same" car.

This would make an interesting study is the European versus American car buying psychology.
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  #35  
Old 10-30-2014, 02:11 AM
Matski Matski is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
Clearly NOT the case given that the American Fusion is a Mondeo. The Mondeo was clearly designed to those European standards and the Fusion is just a reskinned Mondeo, but it is priced to the penny against a Camry or Accord.

If I were thinking of buying a Passat (ours is disgusting) or an Accord, I'd go with the Accord. If I were thinking of buying a CC or an Accord, I'd still go with the Accord because it is a much better car in every way for $10K less when comparably equipped.

America is a place to buy cheap cars because we do not believe we should have to pay a premium to get premium.

The perfect illustration of that is the Genesis. The current one is indeed premium but not priced like one. The first Genesis was a (relatively speaking) strong seller. That Genesis sedan outsold all of Jaguar combined several years in a row. The new Genesis is looking like it will even better.

A4 vs Genesis (same price and features)...I'd go with the superior reliability of the Hyundai even if the snob appeal isn't there...yet.

The prices Europeans are willing to pay for a deadly dull Golf would cause derisive laughter in VW's face here. There, in Europe, my perception is that buyers think VW is supposedly a near-premium/premium car instead of a "people's car" like Toyota, Honda, Ford, Chevy.

A "VW" is much better than a "Skoda" yet they are the "same" car.

This would make an interesting study is the European versus American car buying psychology.
In the UK there is definitely a feeling that, although slightly pricier than other brands, a VW does represent good value for money, because of it's reliability image and resale value, and the common idea that you're almost getting an Audi, at a discounted rate. Here, Skodas and SEAT's are aplenty for a similar reason, the common idea is, that you are buying a VW for Ford money, or less.

We get a lot of French cars too.. Renaults, Peugeots and Citroens, which typically are much cheaper, but I know plenty of people that won't touch them, because of perceived quality issues and terrible resale values.

As you say... it would make an interesting study.




Anyway, on the subject of the A4... it's laughable if Audi get away with another generation of this styling, I hope it fails if for no other reason that Audi's design department need a short, sharp, shock.
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  #36  
Old 10-30-2014, 03:50 AM
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In the USA VW and reliability are not spoken in the same sentence. Here, Hyundai is much better quality in build and reliability unfortunately

2.0T engines going kaboom

DSG trannies going kaboom

electrical gremlins...kaboom
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  #37  
Old 10-30-2014, 08:44 AM
mick78 mick78 is offline
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Whilst I agree on some points concerning, e.g. European badge snobbery, and sometimes false perception of quality, I can't agree with all of that above. The different shopping habits have a lot of reasons, and VW's strength in the market too. VW's reliability image is form times of VW Beetle (well, after 30 - 40 years of building, in the 70ies most niggles were ironed out) up to the Golf Mk. 2, where quality was really good in the long term, although partly because it came with nothing standard that could go wrong (generous equipment of French and Italian cars with first generation "electric everything" back then also ruined their image). The faulty DSG, TSi etc. are the same here, but people seem to look over that for the fact that resales are strong and image is still good...

Another point is individuality. Whilst many European (esp. VW) offer a huge variety of single options, most Japanese (and Korean) cars usually come either as strippers with no options possible (and if essential equipment is missing, even a bargain price is not enough, as can be seen how few Dacias are actually base models) or fully loaded with a price sticker that drives away potential customers, as it is often well in German premium territory. Basically "factory orders" are just possible with European makers.

Another point are the different engine preferences. When in the 90ies Europe turned "all TDI", basically no Asian car maker could offer anything, and by the time they came up with good engines, the trend had cooled down, and with current "downsize Turbo petrol", it's a similar story. As are good lower power engines, which make attractive buys in most high tax European countries (in many countries, 150+ hp gets very pricey, thus the sea of even C180, 316i etc.). Especially in the Diesel era, Japanese lost a lot of customers, and here it also seems brand loyality is way higher, kind of "if it works don't change it", a little price advantage is - unlike it seems in the US - not a reason to turn away form "the known". It needs more, and this "more" is offered by way fewer cars than it seems from a US perspective...
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  #38  
Old 01-22-2015, 10:58 AM
mick78 mick78 is offline
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http://www.carscoops.com/2015/01/spi...n-will-be.html

Nothing really new, but high res close ups show that it looks, well, identical to the current model bar the grille. Not close, identical basically. Audi needs fresh thinking....
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  #39  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:30 PM
gcodori gcodori is offline
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Originally Posted by swizzle View Post
Let's see...loaded Fusion Energi or Passat TDI?--VERY similar in price--I'd take the Energi for its better looks and MUCH better MPG.
I had to stop reading right here.
Per Fuelly (real world mpgs):

Fusion hybrid = 36 to 40 mpg
TDI = 36 - 40 mpg

wow, the fusion is MUCH better...
My wife has a hybrid and I own a diesel. We've been pretty close in MPG (38 - 40) so I can verify the above statement. She drives mostly highway and would be better off in a diesel, while I drive mixed traffic and would be better off in a hybrid - go figure.

I also own a FORD that is currently sitting dead in the driveway due to transmission issues. Ford will never fix their transmission issues. https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...n+transmission (166,000+ results)

But hey, thanks for the laugh. And making me angry about my ford (I USED to be a ford guy).
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  #40  
Old 02-03-2015, 11:45 PM
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IcedG35 IcedG35 is offline
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Originally Posted by gcodori View Post
I had to stop reading right here.
Per Fuelly (real world mpgs):

Fusion hybrid = 36 to 40 mpg
TDI = 36 - 40 mpg

wow, the fusion is MUCH better...
My wife has a hybrid and I own a diesel. We've been pretty close in MPG (38 - 40) so I can verify the above statement. She drives mostly highway and would be better off in a diesel, while I drive mixed traffic and would be better off in a hybrid - go figure.

I also own a FORD that is currently sitting dead in the driveway due to transmission issues. Ford will never fix their transmission issues. https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...n+transmission (166,000+ results)

But hey, thanks for the laugh. And making me angry about my ford (I USED to be a ford guy).
the Fusion Energy he referred to gets a MPGe rating of 95/81 and the Fusion hybrid gets 44/41
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